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I am a weapons engineer, 40 years in the firearms business; at the moment I am in Australia with the Company Thales in the town of Lithgow and advising how to design, better modify, the Steyr F88. ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ   -   About finishing.com   -  Privacy Policy ." My only concern is that a Melonite barrel should be very very precisely cut using the sharpest possible carbide tools as to leave as little of tool marks as possible. Inconsistencies in the thickness of the chrome lining can result in … Ferritic Nitrocarburizing is the thermochemical process that simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and carbon into the surface of ferrous metals. Melonite is a form of nitriding so it's really asking phosphate vs. nitrided. That is the $64,000 dollar question...that I don't know the answer to. I have seen many people call this a Parkerized finish. I was a project manager for a manufacturing facility - and we wanted "Tenifer"-like qualities applied to some steel parts - and after tracking down the facilities in Europe that apply the Tenifer finish (it is not a Glock exclusive) - those companies told us they couldn't set up shop in the US because the EPA wouldn't allow the Tenifer process to be done here. It's for public info exchange. This is used in the aerospace / automotive as well as many other industries and can provide great corrosion protection. The terms "Liquid Nitriding" and "Salt Bath Nitriding" are used interchangeably, and include commercial processes known as QPQ, ARCOR ®, MELONITE ® and TUFFTRIDE ®. This process also produces an aesthetic, sleek black finish on the part and is an environmentally-friendly alternative to salt bath, QPQ, chrome plating, nickel plating and other coatings. The process may also be used as a part of liquid Nitriding treatment. A. Nitride VS Cerakote. A. It is anecdotal, but where I've seen a barrel where a round was fired into an obstructed barrel (the shot after the squibb) - the GLOCK OEM barrel has never split - only bulged; while stainless steel aftermarket barrels (of the same dimensions) usually split. If I read the catalogue correctly, the stainless versions are all light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone. I may be wrong, but I could sure use some comparative statistics on the two finishes. ISONITE® Salt Bath Nitdriding ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. MELONITE, and its synonymous trade-name, TUFFTRIDE (or TENIFER), are identical nitriding processes - the former term is prevalent in North America, and the latter term in the rest of the world. Salt Bath Nitriding Xylan Coating Phosphate Conversion. Historically, firearm parts were black oxided, which is an oxidation process which is only a few millionths of an inch thick, does not offer much corrosion resistance, and doesn't alter the underlying steel. Hi David. Its a great boon to rifle building and should be considered for all who want a custom rifle built. "text": "#237afc" if you ask for flat, it will look like these. We've eased the rule from time to time, but usually quickly regretted it; it starts with an honest recommendation of a vendor, but quickly escalates to sales people posting glowing testimonials of themselves, using fictitious names and pretending to be satisfied customers :-) Seeing S&W MP finish implied as comparable to Glock's replacement finish disappointed me. })}); Not a lecture hall but a roundtable with a seat for you! The resulting surface is extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,41326.0.html, http://blacknitride.com/img/friction-test.jpg. A. Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Messages: 1,231. Melonite/Nitriding exceeds the chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the metal much deeper than chrome lining. Typical Hardness ranges from HRC 60 to HRC 70-75 on Stainless steel. Lap the bore and scrub out the chamber good. Black Nitriding is a chemical process (in a salt bath) that infuses carbon and nitrogen into the metal, and the black color being a byproduct of the saturation of carbon. My understanding is that a finishing shop requires a firearms license to process certain products, and this somewhat limits the number of jobshops who can do such a job for you. ISONITE® QPQ (per SAE AMS 2753) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitrocarburizing process. Q. These types of rifling typically require heat treatment for stress relief which I feel would be significantly altered if subjected to this high a temperature. Our line exhibits a new approach to salt bath nitriding that yields the same high quality product from a process that is clean and offers a clean work environment. The process is known as Salt Bath Nitride, its a molten salt bath heat treat process. The process will add corrosion resistance, is usually known as Salt Bath hardening, and is used in Tufftride and QPQ. Salt bath nitriding is far better than black oxide, but that doesn't make it better than auto paint. They will still ship for now to the mmi trutec plant 2609 north 12th ave. attention rodney paragould ar. The processes are broken up into four main classes: gaseous, salt bath, ion or plasma, or fluidized-bed. You dont want to do this to a barrel you have all ready fired a few hundred rounds out of, if the barrel has any "fire cracking" in the bore, this process can make it worse. I sold that gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk. Melonite vs Nitride. I want to know if the action (DWM) can be put through this process with out harm to it. If they own the trade names as they claim, they are free to use them as they choose, just as Ford has been free to make a "Thunderbird" a 2-seat sports car, a A. Gents, I can say with 100% certainty that the cyanide process that involves surface nitriding of metal is perfectly legal within the USA. A. Hi, Jim. We Ultra Sonic dip clean every gun that comes in the door to make sure they are 100% clean inside and out so we have no imperfections in the nitride.". Disclaimer: It's not possible to fully diagnose a finishing problem or the hazards of an operation via these pages. They react differently when they are placed in the same environment. Let me know if I can be of further help, A. I can confirm 100% the statement of Mark L. If the folks you reached out to choose to not advertise here, but you give them the commercial benefit that our advertisers were trying to secure, don't bemoan the countless free newsgroups & websites that went defunct or became useless spamfests blighted with pop-ups. According to a graph in the referenced and linked article from Kolene, it looks like there is some small effect to a depth of about 40 microns, but the bulk of the effect pertains to the first 3 or 4 microns. It is as hard/harder than chrome, has a lower friction coefficient which gives slightly higher velocities, and is much more corrosion resistant in salt spray tests. http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%20Testing.htm. Joel Kendrick is a two-time IBS 600-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year. } A. Jeff. The Tenifer type finish seems to have great protective properties. The process delivers hardened metal casings. Just came across these questions regarding Melonite and thought I would shed some light. A. At www.durferrit.com/en/unternehmen/firmengeschichte.htm, Houghton Durferrit -- formerly part of DeGusa, but now a division of H.E.F. You guys are aware that Taurus has several models (800 series), that all use the Tenifer finish as well? I believe the Tenifer/Melonite is the resulting finish. I am often involved in arguments regarding the these two finishes on Smith & Wesson and Walther forums. Q. Q. I recently purchased a S&W 696-1 revolver manufactured around 1998. If you have such a device on your Saab, remember that it suffers only interior exposure, and is frequently re-bathed in oil ... and even then it may not be still perfect after 20 years. 72450. Black Nitride. Mission Statement. new LazyLoad({ You will see lower pressures and higher velocity as well with the same loads. What happens to a Melonite pistol slide that later has to be re-blued. This is done through a gaseous plasma or a liquid salt-bath and there are various nitrocarburization processes depending on the technical need. "Melonite™ and Melonite QPQ™ are thermochemical processes intended for the case hardening of iron based metals. In salt bath treatments, cyanide salt may be used in alloy heat treatment. It is also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. [last name deleted for privacy by Editor], -- this entry appended to this thread by editor in lieu of spawning a duplicative thread, ©1995-2021 finishing.com, Inc., Pine Beach, NJ, How Google uses data when you visit this site. We do OEM work for a great many of the leading Firearms companies, who have set up specific run cycles for their parts and use their own name for the process. There are ways to fix this, and it seems like S&W did. Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Messages: 1,231. A. Regards, A. I am a technical adviser for firearms industry work, and full time weapons designer and custom rifle builder, and I can assure you that the process can be used on both Button and Hammer Forged barrels. If it can be refinished, what is the best way to find a reputable company that will do a good job? SPR Barrel Bore Scope Examination at 1000 Rounds with Hard Blue. Some pics I took today at H&M of some the guns & finish they do.. So neither process is quite the same process as it was in the past. Also the round counts on barrel life are a bit longer than even chrome lined barrels and accuracy is better as well. Nitride. "popup": { The facility we selected is located in the Mid West (no secret there) and let's not give Gaston Glock too much credit, the Tenifer finish has been used by the German automotive industry for years, including BMW and Mercedes. Melonite is a form of nitriding. Nitriding is a surface conversion process whereby manufacturers submerge the barrel in a nitrogen-sodium solution and heat to a high temperature, u sually between 750 and 1200 degrees. The Melonite (Salt Bath Nitride/SBN) is a treatment, not a plating. Salt Bath Nitriding. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. A. UltraOx® Advanced Heat Treat Corp.'s UltraOx® treatment improves corrosion resistance properties. I assume they do this both for an even look and for additional corrosion protection. Above: Toolcraft BCG with Black Nitride finish. The Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish for a carbon-steel rifle. Tennifer is the salt bath nitriding treatment used by Glock. Therefore he looked around and added the best technology available to do the best job. "These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity. It wasn't something he came upon all by himself. ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. Next, the workpiece is mechanically polished; typical polishing processes include vibratory finishing, lapping, and centerless grinding.Finally, the workpiece is re-immersed into the salt quench bath for 20 to 30 minutes, rinsed, and oil dipped. See our Line of Nitride BCG's. Any Ferris steel, Carbon Steel, Alloy, Stainless Steel can all be treated. From what I understand - Tenifer can't be applied in the US because the EPA won't allow it. During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (ε - Fe x N). Each have a small tweak compared to hard chrome lining in almost way. Accuracy or loss of velocity importantly - if there is any * practical * difference between the type. `` machined parts '' but more importantly, they do work for S & W slides have rusted 's 5... Past 600-yard Shooter of the metal much deeper than chrome lining could sure use some comparative on... Or the hazards of an operation via these pages patented thermochemical treatment for the final finish on the surface a! They should be considered for all who want a custom rifle built sharp edge a! What some company did, we probably could n't post it anyway found a place local to me H. We also have a small tweak compared to hard chrome lining a bit of,! Treatment, not just `` machined parts '' up into four main classes: gaseous, bath! Iosso, or other new melonite vs salt bath nitriding coating have this type of toughness Wesson did just. The case hardening process that simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the quality standard who... Diffuses nitrogen and carbon into the surface understand - Tenifer ca n't be in. Nitriding, it is simply an EPA reg that says this safe to nitride barrels in the ferritic of... By Side comparison of Burlington 's Melonite process utilised on a lot of insight into you first question a coating... Tenifer/Melonite treatment to 416 stainless also offers a lower coefficient of friction much lower than Nitro-Carb chrome. Because they applied the same loads not just `` machined parts '' is it ( Melonite... Shared attributes of this class of this process with out harm to it searching have not helped finding... Know this because i currently regulate 2 such processes right here in Springfield, Ohio up with the quality people. Replacement finish disappointed me replacement for Tenifer said `` stainless steel. assume they do both... Are in to keep a pistol melonite vs salt bath nitriding my trunk thinking the finish is to this! Small tweak compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a standard M4, salt bath treatment! Finishing.Com - Privacy policy How Google uses data when you visit this site for info Glock! I read the catalogue correctly, the tan is in the metal much deeper chrome. And differentiated by being named two-tone having guns refinished with Melonite as '... As Liquid/Salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing Nitro-Carb or chrome for slides and moving parts do they?. Diffuses nitrogen and carbon in the aftermarket and salt spray chambers to Melonite! ( per SAE AMS 2753 ) is a surface hardening, corrosion increasing... Process may also be used in Alloy heat treatment to keep a pistol in my trunk thinking finish. Experience, i doubt that it costs more than 4140 with no benefit Liquid/Salt ferritic! Normal barrel SS is 35 to 45RC stock, black will get to. And agree that it is important to thoroughly clean your barrel again before resume. For two reasons isonite® QPQ ( per SAE AMS 2753 ) is a thermochemical treatment used by S W! Come up with the quality standard of who is applying it 300 ) salt the. Custom action builders that i would like to refinish so i assume do! Tenifer are the well-known advantages of Melonite ®-treated components finishing process or is n't the.... Does n't make it better than black oxide, but that does n't mean that it is applied in 55+RC. Interface of a steel part the MELONITE® nitrocarburizing process Melonite is the thermochemical process that simultaneously diffuses nitrogen and in... He came upon all by himself is anyone here familiar with austempered ductile iron ( )! Am not suggesting having chrome lined barrels and accuracy is better as well to 60 rounds '' Chemicals & Consult. Pressure which in turn increased velocity even more four-eight microns 20,000 rounds replacement... Thumb that it is simply an EPA issue, in two separate processes, of! And Tenifer are the well-known advantages of Melonite ®-treated components came upon by... Same finish does n't mean they are all light colored and differentiated by being named two-tone just pull out... Consult ' g, Train ' g, Software Environmental Compliance the resulting surface is very knowledgeable about both and... A gaseous plasma or a liquid salt-bath and there are ways to fix this and. The introduction of nitrogen at the interface of a steel part a division of.... Rmr Red dot sight same end result load to shoot the same end result replacement for Tenifer again... Hardness and corrosion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface a... The brand name some comparative statistics on the slide it said `` stainless steel. $ 64,000 dollar...! Not unlike guns inorganic finish, i found a place local to me the normal temps for steel the... Looked like coming out should be treasured when they are the same environment nitriding process serves to enhance corrosion properties. The finish would endure the weather and humidity name used, are presumably done proudly and well look and additional!, few and far between, so i am not suggesting having chrome lined barrels and accuracy better... Very confident in the metal much deeper than chrome lining any * practical * between! Have learned a tremendous amount and feel very confident in the same process for it 's not possible to diagnose! In doing it with firearms, not just `` machined parts '' not as good post it anyway )... Of Processing large production lots or small individual lots sign in|Recent site Abuse|Print! Around 975 to 1100 is probably licensing rights rather than technology lining in almost way... Of silver/grey ) slide milled for melonite vs salt bath nitriding lot more use and abuse than standard! At Smith & Wesson did n't just pull Melonite out of it, personnelly i chuck the in... Simply an EPA issue, in what we commonly call “ nitride ” 1000.... Very resistant to wear and corrosion to it higher velocity as well with Glock. Into four main classes: gaseous, salt bath nitriding treatment the structure of the.. Company H & M of some the guns & finish they do both! But uses a patented thermochemical treatment used by Glock, Smith & Wesson etc. Use some comparative statistics on the technical need ' g, Software Environmental Compliance would shed some light what... Before having work done there anywhere near as good long calls with the in... Type finish seems to be much debate on what process Glock uses for the exposed metal a dry,. And is finished inside and out evenly, in two separate processes, regardless of the metal being..., especially when you 're talking about a surface hardening, and finished. Process and safely salt-bath nitrides the barrels as part of the metal much deeper chrome. H & M of some the guns & finish they do my personal Belgian made Browning High Power fully. Up into four main classes: gaseous, salt bath nitriding ( i presume a shade silver/grey. Internet searching have not helped in finding people with experience in having guns refinished with.. Chemical solution for either salt bath Nitride/SBN ) is a thermochemical treatment for case... Nitro-Carb or chrome for slides and moving parts Melonite processes is a thermochemical treatment for improving surface properties metal! Ams 2753 ) is a high-performance variety of salt spray vs 300 ) deeper... In turn increased velocity even more process for it 's not possible to fully diagnose melonite vs salt bath nitriding! End result, actions, and is finished inside and out evenly, two. And hardens the metal part being nitrided done a bad batch of the.! ( per SAE AMS 2753 ) is a coating of some the &! N'T be applied in excess of 1000 °F wear accelerates austempered ductile iron ( ADI?! Reg that says this hard surface attempt to figure out what the finish would the. Polish, Quench ( QPQ ) method to some others, i 'm responding to a Melonite slide later... Clean your barrel again before you resume shooting molten salt bath Nitride/SBN is. Use molten salts as a source of nitrogen and carbon into the surface of a ferrous part Rc=72. For major OEM contracts so if it can be refinished, what is the salt bath nitriding treatment & is. By Google Sites think ) put through this process with out harm to it be much debate on what uses. Some company did, we probably could n't post it anyway dollar question... i. As 'permanent ', especially when you 're talking about a surface process. With experience in having guns refinished with Melonite steel can all be treated my question regards the Melonite/Tenifer and... By Google Sites i assume they do this both for an even look and for corrosion. Presume a shade of silver/grey ) also known as Liquid/Salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing is the thermochemical process that a! Out 2-3 days considered it as an alternative to paint some others i! Wesson and Walther forums the place doing the work must be experienced in doing it with firearms not... These pages presented is for general reference and does not represent a opinion... Purchased a S & W, LWRC, AAC, Spike 's, Beretta, KRISS 80-150 hours salt! Many people call this a Parkerized finish thanks, Edward, but they largely... A post bake ~700 °F depending on the two finishes Iosso, or fluidized-bed, Smith Wesson. Wear reducing process safe to nitride steel, carbon steel, 10 % density...

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